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fatslob-:O said:
HylianSwordsman said:

Again, you seem to be missing the concept here. The idea is that some people may feel that if they can't have a hard Brexit with no deal, they'd rather not have a Brexit at all, and had they understood that from the beginning, they may have voted Remain. Similarly, Northern Ireland seems to be of the opinion (if I'm understanding things correctly) that they wanted to leave, but ONLY on the condition that it not be a hard Brexit, so they might want to choose Remain as a second option as well, since if they'd known that May would be this incompetent in securing a deal, they might have never chosen leave. Plenty of people might have a Brexit preference, but just want some sort of Brexit, so long as the end result isn't Remain, people like you. And of course, plenty of people might decide that upon closer inspection, leaving doesn't seem so scary after all, and since a lot of the threats have already been baked into the stock market and companies that are going to flee Britain to stay in the EU have largely already done so, Remainers might have a better idea now what sort of Brexit they want if it comes to that, or might have changed their mind and would pick one of the Brexit options as their first choice. But I suppose your fear of people changing their minds is the main reason you're against this. But that seems silly to me, because if they changed their mind, it's because they got new information that gives them a more informed opinion that led them to change their mind. Why should that not be allowed to be reflected in the referendum? It just seems to me like the result of the second, designed as I explained before, would be the most accurate read of the will of the people of the UK. It allows them not only to express their opinion as fully informed as could honestly be expected, but also to indicate preferred conditions of compromise if they can't have their exact way, and indicate preferred conditions on the way Brexit plays out, if it comes to that. It's to me the most honest way to make sure the final policy most closely reflects what the UK would be most pleased with, which seems to me like the point of a referendum.

Again, if you respected the principles of democracy then everyone needs to come to terms with the result. You take the institutions that exist in western liberal democracies for granted so you still have yet to understand why a result cannot be overturned by a follow-up election. Make no mistake that I'm not missing any concepts, however it is you that needs to understand why we cannot break precedent so easily and that a different election format is not a justification for doing such ... 

Northern Ireland wanted to remain, they didn't want to leave but if they had to leave they wanted to do so under the condition of having no Irish backstop since the protestant unionists which are still currently in political power wanted to be in a strong relationship with the union of kingdoms (UK), however a proposed customs check by the EU between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK threatens this unity since Northern Ireland would be treated very differently and the protestant unionists don't want that ... (the DUP would rather ditch the single market than have a border with the rest of UK) 

The conservative party is in a coalition with the DUP so it's not that Theresa May is necessarily bad at securing a deal but it's that she can't compromise on the backstop proposal unless she wants to risk losing in a vote of confidence ... 

As far as changing minds are concerned, people do change their minds but the precedent of respecting the democratic result means that an election cannot be overturned with another election and that is final. Just as the 2016 US presidential elections was a close race, Americans must come to terms with Trump and the same should apply to the British with Brexit. If the British people still want to change their minds then do so after the fact that they've already left the EU but don't run down their own precedents or institutions in the process with it ... 

That's pure bullshit. So you're not allowed to vote twice about something? You are aware there were already 2 Brexit votes before 2016? By your own theory there shouldn't have been yet another Brexit vote

Or, even worse, that after an election all Ministers, mayors and other politicians voted into office would be elected for life as no second vote is allowed by your rules.



Skeeuk said:
I firmly believe that there will be no brexit the powers that be won't allow it. I predict conditions will be engineered so that the people will ask for a second referendum.

Once this happens there will be an extremely strong push across all media that brexit people are naizis and evil, I wouldn't be surprised that false flag attacks will be planted to turn peoples opinions away from leaving EU

That's quite a conspiracy theory. You do realise that the the largest circulation of print media in the UK has been for anti-EU for well over a decade?



fatslob-:O said:
HylianSwordsman said:

Again, you seem to be missing the concept here. The idea is that some people may feel that if they can't have a hard Brexit with no deal, they'd rather not have a Brexit at all, and had they understood that from the beginning, they may have voted Remain. Similarly, Northern Ireland seems to be of the opinion (if I'm understanding things correctly) that they wanted to leave, but ONLY on the condition that it not be a hard Brexit, so they might want to choose Remain as a second option as well, since if they'd known that May would be this incompetent in securing a deal, they might have never chosen leave. Plenty of people might have a Brexit preference, but just want some sort of Brexit, so long as the end result isn't Remain, people like you. And of course, plenty of people might decide that upon closer inspection, leaving doesn't seem so scary after all, and since a lot of the threats have already been baked into the stock market and companies that are going to flee Britain to stay in the EU have largely already done so, Remainers might have a better idea now what sort of Brexit they want if it comes to that, or might have changed their mind and would pick one of the Brexit options as their first choice. But I suppose your fear of people changing their minds is the main reason you're against this. But that seems silly to me, because if they changed their mind, it's because they got new information that gives them a more informed opinion that led them to change their mind. Why should that not be allowed to be reflected in the referendum? It just seems to me like the result of the second, designed as I explained before, would be the most accurate read of the will of the people of the UK. It allows them not only to express their opinion as fully informed as could honestly be expected, but also to indicate preferred conditions of compromise if they can't have their exact way, and indicate preferred conditions on the way Brexit plays out, if it comes to that. It's to me the most honest way to make sure the final policy most closely reflects what the UK would be most pleased with, which seems to me like the point of a referendum.

Again, if you respected the principles of democracy then everyone needs to come to terms with the result. You take the institutions that exist in western liberal democracies for granted so you still have yet to understand why a result cannot be overturned by a follow-up election. Make no mistake that I'm not missing any concepts, however it is you that needs to understand why we cannot break precedent so easily and that a different election format is not a justification for doing such ... 

Northern Ireland wanted to remain, they didn't want to leave but if they had to leave they wanted to do so under the condition of having no Irish backstop since the protestant unionists which are still currently in political power wanted to be in a strong relationship with the union of kingdoms (UK), however a proposed customs check by the EU between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK threatens this unity since Northern Ireland would be treated very differently and the protestant unionists don't want that ... (the DUP would rather ditch the single market than have a border with the rest of UK) 

The conservative party is in a coalition with the DUP so it's not that Theresa May is necessarily bad at securing a deal but it's that she can't compromise on the backstop proposal unless she wants to risk losing in a vote of confidence ... 

As far as changing minds are concerned, people do change their minds but the precedent of respecting the democratic result means that an election cannot be overturned with another election and that is final. Just as the 2016 US presidential elections was a close race, Americans must come to terms with Trump and the same should apply to the British with Brexit. If the British people still want to change their minds then do so after the fact that they've already left the EU but don't run down their own precedents or institutions in the process with it ... 

You seem to be much more out of touch with the principles of democracy. Democracy simply means rule by the people. If they want to overturn a previous result, they can. Especially something with direct democracy like a referendum. In the United States we have something called the Congressional Review Act that allows a newly elected congress to undo things just done by a previous administration. This is fine because those previous things were done by democratically elected officials, and the new things are being done by new representatives. Both courses of action are being done by people acting on a platform that people then voted to represent them, so overturning previous results is fine. So there's an example of it being done with a representative democracy mechanism, but for direct democracy, the case is even stronger, since it is the directly stated, absolute will of the people (nonbinding or not, this is what the result of a referendum is understood to represent). Furthermore, if we simply had to come to terms with a specific elected official, impeachment wouldn't be an option. If we simply had to come to terms with results, recounts wouldn't be an option, nor would court challenges based on suspicions of electoral fraud.

Besides, if you're so insistent that this betrays some kind of precedent, then perhaps you could work out a deal with the EU to instantly reenter, so that for a fraction of a second, on March 29th, they'd be out, but immediately be back in again, thus fulfilling both referendums, strictly speaking. I mean if you admit that a second referendum could be held, just that it couldn't stop the results of the first referendum, there's no reason the second referendum couldn't be held now, but the conditions of the "Remain" option instead be "Rejoin" and a deal worked out with the EU to make that rejoining instant. I'm sure the EU would be interested in having the UK rejoin, especially if it were done so seemlessly.

Thanks for the clarification on Northern Ireland.



To my British cousins. Help me understand. Why hasnt brexit happened yet? What's the hang up? Sorry, really, I am ignorant of the specifics and just want to know. I do trust this community to be relatively balanced.



Victorlink87 said:
To my British cousins. Help me understand. Why hasnt brexit happened yet? What's the hang up? Sorry, really, I am ignorant of the specifics and just want to know. I do trust this community to be relatively balanced.

It hasnt happend yet..... the UK leaves the EU on march 29th (I thinki it was).

Its looking like the UK are makeing a mess of things, and will have no deals in place for that day.

Reguardless of laws/trade deals ect, it kicks in on the 29th, and it looks like the uk, wants to put on a blindfold and jump off a cliff.



JRPGfan said:
Victorlink87 said:
To my British cousins. Help me understand. Why hasnt brexit happened yet? What's the hang up? Sorry, really, I am ignorant of the specifics and just want to know. I do trust this community to be relatively balanced.

It hasnt happend yet..... the UK leaves the EU on march 29th (I thinki it was).

Its looking like the UK are makeing a mess of things, and will have no deals in place for that day.

Reguardless of laws/trade deals ect, it kicks in on the 29th, and it looks like the uk, wants to put on a blindfold and jump off a cliff.

What are the concerns surrounding not having a deal and why did the previous proposal fail? 



Victorlink87 said:
JRPGfan said:

It hasnt happend yet..... the UK leaves the EU on march 29th (I thinki it was).

Its looking like the UK are makeing a mess of things, and will have no deals in place for that day.

Reguardless of laws/trade deals ect, it kicks in on the 29th, and it looks like the uk, wants to put on a blindfold and jump off a cliff.

What are the concerns surrounding not having a deal and why did the previous proposal fail? 

The EU is by far the largest trade partner of the UK. A no-deal brexit would mean, that there would be an immediate implementation of tariffs (as dictated by the WTO between two members without other agreements) and border checks. If having tariffs/border checks is viewed as a positive or negative is a debate I won't touch, but the fact that it is so *sudden* in itself creates significant logistic issues, since the existing infrastructure doesn't assume any such barriers (which various sectors of the government and private enterprises are trying to prepare for - we'll see how effective it is.) For example, a big part of UK medical supplies come from the EU - the UK national health service is consequently prepping for a temporary shortage. (I would assume they would have a fair handle of what's necessary - I wouldn't expect people to die due to this.) The majority of the food in the UK comes from the EU; Again, probably no starvations in Britain, no need to be melodramatic; but a significant price hike, in the transition, is very possible. As a whole, it's mostly going to be a very *expensive* procedure, for both governments, and the private sector, needing to make immediate adjustments to the market situation. 



Bet with PeH: 

I win if Arms sells over 700 000 units worldwide by the end of 2017.

Bet with WagnerPaiva:

 

I win if Emmanuel Macron wins the french presidential election May 7th 2017.

palou said:
Victorlink87 said:

What are the concerns surrounding not having a deal and why did the previous proposal fail? 

The EU is by far the largest trade partner of the UK. A no-deal brexit would mean, that there would be an immediate implementation of tariffs (as dictated by the WTO between two members without other agreements) and border checks. If having tariffs/border checks is viewed as a positive or negative is a debate I won't touch, but the fact that it is so *sudden* in itself creates significant logistic issues, since the existing infrastructure doesn't assume any such barriers (which various sectors of the government and private enterprises are trying to prepare for - we'll see how effective it is.) For example, a big part of UK medical supplies come from the EU - the UK national health service is consequently prepping for a temporary shortage. (I would assume they would have a fair handle of what's necessary - I wouldn't expect people to die due to this.) The majority of the food in the UK comes from the EU; Again, probably no starvations in Britain, no need to be melodramatic; but a significant price hike, in the transition, is very possible. As a whole, it's mostly going to be a very *expensive* procedure, for both governments, and the private sector, needing to make immediate adjustments to the market situation. 

That is a lot to take in. Its not as if there is a reasonable trade partner to take the EU's place either. The US just doesn't export a lot nor do we do it well. China is a possibility, but food exports could be problematic.



As a filthy job stealing immigrant living in uk for 1.5 year, I think staying in the EU would be better for me as an individual. But for the country, in the long run, the best is to leave the EU. But I think the best way would be with a soft brexit and with time you can then cut the ties with EU. A hard brexit now would be too disruptive and caude too kany trouble.
Btw I may not agree with the decision taken by the people of uk in the referendum by I understand their reasons for doing it.



MrWayne said:

Since when is it a principles of democracy that results can't be overturned by a follow-up election? I would even say that it is a principle of democracy that results can be overturned by follow-up elections, it happens all the time, you elect your parliament every four years and new governments overturn decisions made by the previous government (Trump overturned obamacare, Merkle overturned the decision to pull out of nuklear-elekticity when she came to power, etc). Sometimes you even have to vote until you get a good result, If the political parties in Germany fail to form a government after an election the citizens have to vote again, The british parliament is currently in a pretty similar situation, they don't want to stay in the EU, they don't want a no-deal scenario and they don't want May's deal, that's a typical deadlock.

Also what if a majority of the british people don't want the Brexit anymore? How would you justify Brexit then? A second referendum could clarify if the people still want the Brexit and if so what kind of Brexit.

@Bold Then explain where the end sight would be in holding endless elections ? The people who 'support' the "result of the first referendum" but then calls for another immediate second referendum are loaded with nothing but horseshit to plot on overturning the result ... 

"Fixed terms" is not the equivalent of 'overturning' the result so that's just an invalid comparison right there. Depending on the structure of the government, executive orders or bills can be 'repealed' but as far as but as far as "elections/referendums" are concerned these are things that cannot be 'overturned' in principle and for a very good reason within history since the slave states that feverishly opposed the ascension Abraham Lincoln got their asses kicked in end. Any liberal democracy that are worth their salt will make good on their commitments to their own people otherwise they face the wrath of a possible civil war. It has been a sacred tradition in liberal democracies to follow with the result instead of opposing it for nearly the last 100 years and it took a civil war in what is currently one of the greatest civilizations of all time to see why it wrong to discard it but to even suggest that the people keep voting until they get a 'good' result is absolutely preposterous and shortsighted ... (the point of democracy is that the people don't know what a 'good' result is since that's entirely a matter of opinion even with a consensus so that is not a justification for defiling the integrity of democracy) 

Also despite what the pundits out there say, no Trump did not repeal Obamacare and is in fact still the law currently. As for Merkel, no she wasn't responsible for decommissioning nuclear energy. It was the previous chancellor, Gerhard Shroder which put forth a law into decommissioning nuclear energy. Merkel only extradited the process after Fukushima meltdown ... 

As for German elections, only the president can call for new elections but they also have the power to reject potential laws, however are these actions acceptable when they are supposed to hold a ceremonial role like a monarch ? 

As for your last lines I could coax you into a similar question. How do you know that the majority of the british people still want EU membership and is democracy ever to be settled with successive votes ?  

Ka-pi96 said:

What a load of bullshit.

If you actually believe any of that then you obviously don't like democracy. Nothing wrong with that though, democracy is pretty shitty. But to say all that while pretending to like democracy? That's just hilarious.

That's some mighty strong cognitive dissonance even coming from you, Kapi ... 

There is no democracy without following the result. Both are inseparable so you either take them both in or you get shit in the end, tough call there ... 

End of dialogue anyways since you obviously don't like democracy very much when you proclaim it's "pretty shitty" so there's nothing more to explain to you and I'm not pretending to like democracy in what I'm saying. I'm only trying to present a case for the justification of it where a mandate (Leave in this instance) is compelled to take action so don't even offer the premise that holding another vote before a previous resolution is yet to be in act is proclaimed 'democratic' ... 

The Leavers also gave the Conservative Party the mandate to serve Brexit as well and even the opposition is resisting calls to back a second referendum ... 

Bofferbrauer2 said:

That's pure bullshit. So you're not allowed to vote twice about something? You are aware there were already 2 Brexit votes before 2016? By your own theory there shouldn't have been yet another Brexit vote

Or, even worse, that after an election all Ministers, mayors and other politicians voted into office would be elected for life as no second vote is allowed by your rules.

Instead of shit posting why don't you actually try being constructive for once ? 

I've never claimed that in a democracy you're not allowed to ever revisit an issue but my biggest gripe with the claim that a democracy is somehow 'delivered' with a second referendum is stupid since a democracy can only be considered to be 'delivered' AFTER the result is implemented ... 

For all I could care there could be a third vote on Brexit but don't you dare cheat them out so soon on what they've voted for when the Leavers waited an agonizing 43 YEARS to see the result they've wanted. If you truly support people changing their minds then you need to see to it that those once young people like us today who were probably once supporters of remaining in the EEC during 1975 have their wishes served. Just as the Leavers have paid down over 40 years of their life for this moment to get rid of an experiment that they didn't end up liking, it is time for the Remainers to now pay their dues back to democracy by respecting the result of the original referendum ...

It is the old folks who voted to keep Britain in the project but it is also in their power to vote Britain out of the project and take the rest of the nation in the direction they want so you need to stop being in denial over it ... 

It's as a famous politician once proclaimed, "elections have consequences" so it goes both ways in a democracy where you don't always get the result you want and this applies to representatives as well where they at the very least have a mandate to serve their terms ... 

If you somehow got the impression that democracy is just about only having a single vote then you thought wrong, my argument is about implementing the result ...