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OlfinBedwere said:

To be fair, both May and Corbyn have near-impossible balancing acts to pull off right now. On the one hand, the Conservatives' membership and the press are both overwhelmingly behind Brexit, but the big businesses who bankroll the party are generally against it, and certainly against a no-deal Brexit. And on the other hand, a large majority of Labour's traditional parliamentary seats voted to leave, but the party membership and many of the new voters the party picked up in 2017 are against Brexit.

Those business realise that soon, they will lose a competive edge when tradeing inside the EU.
WTO rules applying, will probably mean soon you ll face a ~15% tarif on alot of goods, and when ~60% of your trade is with EU, that can hurt.

Why they are against a no deal brexit is because their thinking with their pockets, in mind.

 

Pagan said:

A hard brexit would be the Most idiotic Thing to do. Why Not taking Something while leaving. A Bad seal is still better as No Deal at all. You cant govern a Country with your Heart. You have to govern it your brain. It might be that the British People today are to Proud to Accept anything from the EU.  But Tell that to the Future generations who wont give a crab about your Feelings today. They want to know what Deal you made for Future generations.

Nothing is set in stone, overtime deals can be worked out, that while still not as good as being a member, probably wont horribly cripple the UK.
Also theres always the chance in the future that they could join again.

Maybe things somehow just work out anyways, and the UK just starts moveing more and more of its trade, over to china & the US.
Thought Im really sceptical about that, I consider that to be a pipe dream of lies sold to the people by those that wanted brexit.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
JRPGfan said:

It means they have absolutely no withdrawal agreements in place, at the time the leave is finalised.

It means that the UK does NOT get 21months + more to slowly adjust to the new ways of doing things.
There will be a day where suddenly, when no trade can happend again until, you have deals in place again and worked out the bussiness side of things.

UK bussiness will have to follow the law, so there will be a delay periode where they probably cant do much bussiness.
UK reverts to World Trade Rules, on international trade, and lose the benefits the single markets gave them (when dealing with other EU countries).
Tarrifs would force the prices of certain things up, and could result in some UK work force being moved away from the UK.


UK gains controll over immigration.
However UK citizens working the EU might find their qualifications no longer apply in the EU, and wont be able to work there based on them anymore.
There would have to be much tougher safty controll when sailing or flying between EU and UK.

UK can choose to adopt, the laws they supported, when they where members of the EU, and put them into their own.
UK no longer has to follow EU court of law, or the EU court of Human Rights.

 

The UK doesnt have to pay a member fee anymore (~13bn).
The farmers wont get ~4bn back from the EU as support to their industry. You might see food prices rise in the UK.

There will be a Hard Border placed between Northen Irland and Southern Irland.
You might need a pass to cross over from one to another, and pass through safty checks.

 

Thats about it.

Pretty good enumeration

Some things to add:

Almost all imports and exports will get more expensive until trade deals are realized.

Since the UK is heavily reliant on food imports, foods will get much more expensive from the 1-2 punch of import taxes and the loss of EU subsidies in that... ehem...field.

You were talking about UK citizens potentially no longer meeting qualifications in the EU (mostly that means that they will have to have a job or be retired to be able to stay over long term, just like any other non-refugee from a non-EU country), but the reverse would also be true. Considering that many EU citizens work for the NHS, and the latter already being critically short on staff, this could potentially deal a heavy blow to UK healthcare.

As for trading at WTO rules, UK already stated copying the EU schedules (how the EU trades with any country they have no trade deal with). However, the EU, due to it's sheer economic size, has a better negotiation position that the UK alone. Hence why Taiwan already stated that they won't accept trading with the UK under those rules. Not all is bad though, as the UK can still get better deals for them since the ones from the EU are tailored to benefit the Union as a whole, not specific countries.

I think that these two posts pretty much cover my understanding of the situation.



Bofferbrauer2 said:

*Looks at record-long Shutdown*

Yeah, right

Well if they're so keen on opposing then they should start a civil war and see how far they can go last time compared to opposing Abraham Lincoln ...  

OlfinBedwere said:

theory, yes. In practice, trying to pretend that the opposition doesn't exist after the vote - or worse, openly treating them with contempt and hostility while dismissing their views as being irrelevant - almost never ends well in the longer run.

It is both true in theory and in practice if we take a look at the majority of modern western liberal democracy but the only effective way to circumvent mandate by the people is either through a constitution (whether it'd be with a republic or a monarchy) or some other anti-democratic mechanism such as requiring a consensus, term limits, & etc ...

The opposition needs to deal with the fact that they don't have the mandate ... 

HylianSwordsman said:
fatslob-:O said:

That's not true. For one the house of commons could either decide a vote of no confidence again, the second being a general election, and the other option being revoking article 50 ...

A vote of no confidence wouldn't stop a no deal Brexit. A general election is unlikely, but if it happened, it wouldn't stop a no deal Brexit because even a Lib Dem majority couldn't overturn the first referendum without a second referendum, I mean I guess they could since you guys don't have a constitution to protect your referendums or anything so all that holds your laws together are norms and precedents, but still, I just can't seriously entertain this possibility. Revoking article 50 is remaining, which goes against the first referendum, and thus isn't possible. I suppose they could revoke it and then reinvoke it to get around the need for unanimous support from every EU country for a delay, but I don't see that being accepted and I don't see even your government as being stupid enough to try that.

There is no consensus for what the format of a second referendum would be and campaigning is absolutely mandatory since it is THE LAW ... (a minimum of at least 10 weeks and even then that length would be heavily criticized by the Electoral Commission)

I see. Didn't know that. So then they would definitely need to ask the EU for an extension. They better get on that if they want to do a second referendum then. Waiting until March 29th to ask for an extension to allow for a referendum would be really messy.

@Bold Actually, the critics would be correct that it isn't fair in principle if a supposed second referendum included a remain option which led to a remain vote in contrast to a leave vote with the first referendum since the result of the first referendum wouldn't be respected when it has yet to be enacted ...

If you actually cared about respecting the result of the first referendum then a remain option shouldn't even be included in a potential second referendum and should be just either May's deal, no deal or another possible way to leave. Democracy is not all about holding votes but it's also about coming to terms with the consequences that comes with it ... 

As I said, the first referendum would still be respected because all a ranked choice referendum would do is get a more accurate read of what the people wanted with the first referendum. If they simply redid the first referendum exactly as it was done then in a second referendum, I'd agree with you here.

"It wouldn't feel as much like one half the country dragged the other half into something they hated"

This view is incompatible with the consequences of democracy. If it were that simple then we wouldn't need a democracy and would instead opt for unity. A democracy exists solely to separate the mandate from the opposition ... 

I understand that the point of democracy is to decide action based on incomplete agreement of the people, and that to live in a democracy is to agree to go along with the consequences of not always being on the side of the broader consensus, but the health of democracy is dependent upon the respect of the people for democracy, and when opinion is so evenly split on matters of such importance to the country, it's just not healthy for the democracy. When it is possible to alter the democratic mechanisms to create broader consensus among the populace, it should be done. There's no need to demand methods that create less consensus. I'm not suggesting unity for unity's sake, if that's all I wanted I'd ask for a dictatorship. I'm asking for democratic unity for democracy's sake. There's no harm, only good, in designing better democratic mechanisms to create broader democratic consensus. A democracy does exist to separate the mandate from the opposition, but it also exists to create the best possible mandate that minimizes opposition and creates the broadest consensus possible so as to create the strongest mandate possible.

The hard brexiteers were already negotiating trade deals across the world. The only party that weren't willing to negotiate before the exit was the EU and solely the EU because they wanted a withdrawal agreement ...

Well you haven't made much progress there, have you? You can't seriously suggest the hard Brexiteers wouldn't rather have had a hard Brexit be the option on the first referendum and have won that instead, so as to have the whole government commited to a hard Brexit and thus fully invested in working towards making the best hard Brexit possible. A much better system of trade deals would have been possible by now if you had the whole force of the UK government committed to it from the beginning. A second referendum with ranked choice voting would make a hard Brexit a real possibility, and a No Deal referendum result under the circumstances I described may even justify a further extension on Brexit to allow for the negotiation of such trade deals, since there would be no pretenses of a withdrawal agreement being a possibility, as the hard Brexit would be mandated.

Just as America came to terms with Trump it is now time for Britain's turn to come to terms with Brexit ... 

America has hardly come to terms with their current president. He's being investigated in various ways and may eventually be impeached. And especially if the American people on the whole want him impeached, he should be impeached. Just as if the people of the UK want to cancel Brexit, they should be allowed to do so. I don't understand what the Brexiteers are so afraid of here. They've shown they can win before. Worst case scenario for them, Remain wins, UKIP reforms, this time with Brexiteers having gained valuable experience in what can go wrong, so that they can form better plans for a hard Brexit with which to campaign on. They'd formulate more viable Brexit plans and know more about how to sell those plans to the people. Any hard Brexit that resulted from an eventual UKIP victory would be better informed and proceed much more smoothly than the current fiasco. Every way I look at this it just seems like it would be better for everyone, and for democracy as a whole.

A vote of no confidence or a general election has the possibility of leading to avoiding brexit altogether and revocation of article 50 is still technically viable but whether it is politically viable is another matter altogether ... 

Even the possibility of an extension may not grant enough time to hold another referendum. It is compulsory that the Electoral Commission has at least 22 weeks to setup a referendum. As I mentioned before 10 weeks minimum is needed for campaigning and the 12 weeks before that is used to test the question in hand ... 

"If they simply redid the first referendum exactly as it was done then in a second referendum, I'd agree with you here."

A new format does not justify inclusion of an option that has been ruled out recently. If we are to preserve the spirit of democracy and the yet to be granted first wishes then remain needs to be excluded if we are to have a second referendum ... 

"I understand that the point of democracy is to decide action based on incomplete agreement of the people, and that to live in a democracy is to agree to go along with the consequences of not always being on the side of the broader consensus, but the health of democracy is dependent upon the respect of the people for democracy, and when opinion is so evenly split on matters of such importance to the country, it's just not healthy for the democracy."

What is or what isn't healthy for democracy is a matter of debate for the constitutional republics/monarchies out there or thereof to find the right balance. I can tell you what is not democratic is not accepting the result. What you also ask for subsequently is the Singapore/Taiwan/Japan model of democracy but would find a weaker opposition somehow palatable in a liberal democracy ? By setting dominant party politics as the precedent you are virtue signalling that you are content with one party dominating the majority of your political life. Are you truly certain that sacrificing one of the cornerstones of a liberal democracy which is a strong opposition for a stronger consensus if it means facing the possibility of seeing republicans as the mandate the majority of the time or even people like Trump ? 

"Well you haven't made much progress there, have you?"

Depends entirely on what you mean by 'progress'. Britain has made quite a bit of progress outside the EU so even if the British people are committed to Brexit, it won't matter if the two parties won't agree on the withdrawal agreement. To the EU, a withdrawal agreement comes first before talking about trade deals ... 

"America has hardly come to terms with their current president. He's being investigated in various ways and may eventually be impeached. And especially if the American people on the whole want him impeached, he should be impeached. Just as if the people of the UK want to cancel Brexit, they should be allowed to do so."

It's good enough that America isn't waging a civil war over it at the very least so that's pretty much coming to terms with the president. If the British people wanted to undo Brexit then do it AFTER the fact that it has happened, not under false pretenses of democracy. Leaver's have waited OVER 41 YEARS for their chance ever since the European Communities membership referendum. It's nearly unbelievable how you're suggesting to break a precedent that the UK has held for decades and proudly at that ... 

1973 Northern Ireland sovereignty (no), 1975 EC membership (yes), 1979 Scottish devolution (no), 1997 Scottish/Welsh devolution (yes), 1998 Greater London Authority/Northern Ireland Belfast (yes), 2004 North East England devolution (no), 2011 Welsh devolution (yes), 2011 alternative vote (no), 2014 Scottish Independence (no) 

In all of the above mentioned cases the results of all previous referendums were respected yet somehow you want undermine democratic principles to make a special case for Brexit ?



fatslob-:O said:

A vote of no confidence or a general election has the possibility of leading to avoiding brexit altogether and revocation of article 50 is still technically viable but whether it is politically viable is another matter altogether ... 

Even the possibility of an extension may not grant enough time to hold another referendum. It is compulsory that the Electoral Commission has at least 22 weeks to setup a referendum. As I mentioned before 10 weeks minimum is needed for campaigning and the 12 weeks before that is used to test the question in hand ... 

In my experience, something as politically unviable as directly disobeying the first referendum's result by revoking article 50 may as well be treated as altogether impossible from the viewpoint of the common citizen. If something that politically unviable is what you want to happen, you may as well give up, it's just not going to happen. That's interesting about the Electoral Commission. You might be right then, a second referendum might not be possible.

"If they simply redid the first referendum exactly as it was done then in a second referendum, I'd agree with you here."

A new format does not justify inclusion of an option that has been ruled out recently. If we are to preserve the spirit of democracy and the yet to be granted first wishes then remain needs to be excluded if we are to have a second referendum ... 

But this isn't simply a new format I'm suggesting. It's a referendum that clarifies the opinion of the first referendum. What is actually meant by "Leave" and "Remain"? Different people may have had different ideas on it when voting, and it would be dishonest to suggest that their will is being enacted if a better referendum could more clearly demonstrate their will to be contrary to what seemed to be indicated by the first result. Again, the second result could still be for a Brexit, but the mandate would be clarified to justify the precise Brexit desired, with the people fully informed of the precise Brexits that are possible.

"I understand that the point of democracy is to decide action based on incomplete agreement of the people, and that to live in a democracy is to agree to go along with the consequences of not always being on the side of the broader consensus, but the health of democracy is dependent upon the respect of the people for democracy, and when opinion is so evenly split on matters of such importance to the country, it's just not healthy for the democracy."

What is or what isn't healthy for democracy is a matter of debate for the constitutional republics/monarchies out there or thereof to find the right balance. I can tell you what is not democratic is not accepting the result. What you also ask for subsequently is the Singapore/Taiwan/Japan model of democracy but would find a weaker opposition somehow palatable in a liberal democracy? By setting dominant party politics as the precedent you are virtue signalling that you are content with one party dominating the majority of your political life. Are you truly certain that sacrificing one of the cornerstones of a liberal democracy which is a strong opposition for a stronger consensus if it means facing the possibility of seeing republicans as the mandate the majority of the time or even people like Trump? 

Again, I don't feel a second referendum would be a refutation of the first, done the way I proposed, so it wouldn't be "not accepting the results" but rather more like clarifying the will of the people more precisely, as I explained above. I think I understand what you mean about opposition, but I think you may misunderstand me. Do you think I'm suggesting that actual representation, as in the actual makeup of parliament/congress/other legislative body, should be driven by the broadest possible consensus? Because that's not what I meant when I spoke of consensus. I meant consensus for the purposes of mandates for policy preferences of the people, and the policy preferences of their legislative bodies. The makeup of the legislative bodies should be designed to be inclined to include more viewpoints, not less. Our system in the US is horrible for that. But policy preferences of the people should be as accurate as possible to what the people as a whole want, pleasing as many people as possible. Sometimes there are more than two possibilities, and certain options may leave more people happy than others, such that a broader consensus and thus a stronger democratic mandate may be achieved by allowing people to rank their choices like I suggest. It effectively allows everyone to say how everyone would most easily find a compromise, if they had to.

"Well you haven't made much progress there, have you?"

Depends entirely on what you mean by 'progress'. Britain has made quite a bit of progress outside the EU so even if the British people are committed to Brexit, it won't matter if the two parties won't agree on the withdrawal agreement. To the EU, a withdrawal agreement comes first before talking about trade deals ... 

I suppose I'm just not as impressed as you are with the progress made thus far. I think if a hard Brexit had been the voted upon option to begin with, with the full force of British government putting every resource into negotiating more and better trade deals with whomever possible for the entire duration of time from the referendum until March 29th, 2019, the UK would have made much more progress, and you'd all have a clear picture of what your new trade system would look like long before the deadline when things switched over. This would give time for businesses to make whatever changes would best help them adapt.

"America has hardly come to terms with their current president. He's being investigated in various ways and may eventually be impeached. And especially if the American people on the whole want him impeached, he should be impeached. Just as if the people of the UK want to cancel Brexit, they should be allowed to do so."

It's good enough that America isn't waging a civil war over it at the very least so that's pretty much coming to terms with the president.

Well I suppose if that's your standard, then sure, whatever.

If the British people wanted to undo Brexit then do it AFTER the fact that it has happened, not under false pretenses of democracy. Leaver's have waited OVER 41 YEARS for their chance ever since the European Communities membership referendum. It's nearly unbelievable how you're suggesting to break a precedent that the UK has held for decades and proudly at that ... 

1973 Northern Ireland sovereignty (no), 1975 EC membership (yes), 1979 Scottish devolution (no), 1997 Scottish/Welsh devolution (yes), 1998 Greater London Authority/Northern Ireland Belfast (yes), 2004 North East England devolution (no), 2011 Welsh devolution (yes), 2011 alternative vote (no), 2014 Scottish Independence (no) 

In all of the above mentioned cases the results of all previous referendums were respected yet somehow you want undermine democratic principles to make a special case for Brexit ?

Again, the will of the people with the Brexit vote would be clarified with the second referendum, so I don't feel this undermines democratic principles at all, but rather upholds them more faithfully.



HylianSwordsman said:

But this isn't simply a new format I'm suggesting. It's a referendum that clarifies the opinion of the first referendum. What is actually meant by "Leave" and "Remain"? Different people may have had different ideas on it when voting, and it would be dishonest to suggest that their will is being enacted if a better referendum could more clearly demonstrate their will to be contrary to what seemed to be indicated by the first result. Again, the second result could still be for a Brexit, but the mandate would be clarified to justify the precise Brexit desired, with the people fully informed of the precise Brexits that are possible.

If a second referendum is intended to be a clarification of the first vote then it does not justify the inclusion of a remain option. "Remain" by all accounts was a very well understood option given the question at hand which was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" ...

This means that EU membership is not in the deck of cards so while it might be alright to include a customs union, freedom of movement or some other combinations thereof but EU membership itself must be ruled out in it's entirety to preserve the spirit of Brexit ... 

HylianSwordsman said: 

Again, I don't feel a second referendum would be a refutation of the first, done the way I proposed, so it wouldn't be "not accepting the results" but rather more like clarifying the will of the people more precisely, as I explained above. I think I understand what you mean about opposition, but I think you may misunderstand me. Do you think I'm suggesting that actual representation, as in the actual makeup of parliament/congress/other legislative body, should be driven by the broadest possible consensus? Because that's not what I meant when I spoke of consensus. I meant consensus for the purposes of mandates for policy preferences of the people, and the policy preferences of their legislative bodies. The makeup of the legislative bodies should be designed to be inclined to include more viewpoints, not less. Our system in the US is horrible for that. But policy preferences of the people should be as accurate as possible to what the people as a whole want, pleasing as many people as possible. Sometimes there are more than two possibilities, and certain options may leave more people happy than others, such that a broader consensus and thus a stronger democratic mandate may be achieved by allowing people to rank their choices like I suggest. It effectively allows everyone to say how everyone would most easily find a compromise, if they had to.

Again no EU membership which is what the original question and vote implicated. If you wanted to 'clarify' the will of the people more precisely then only Leave options are on the table as the first referendum ruled out EU membership entirely. It's either no deal, May's deal or a possible opt in for a Norway+/Canada/Switzerland style of deal but nothing else ...

HylianSwordsman said: 

I suppose I'm just not as impressed as you are with the progress made thus far. I think if a hard Brexit had been the voted upon option to begin with, with the full force of British government putting every resource into negotiating more and better trade deals with whomever possible for the entire duration of time from the referendum until March 29th, 2019, the UK would have made much more progress, and you'd all have a clear picture of what your new trade system would look like long before the deadline when things switched over. This would give time for businesses to make whatever changes would best help them adapt.

Again, the will of the people with the Brexit vote would be clarified with the second referendum, so I don't feel this undermines democratic principles at all, but rather upholds them more faithfully.

The British people had voted no EU membership so that's the end of it, you got it ? People are divided over Brexit but the vote has already been settled previously for it and there's no turning back to the people. What the citizens might not have a consensus on is how they want Brexit handled and the House of Commons also can't come to agreement either on what kind of withdrawal agreement either which comes first for the EU before any trade deals ...



fatslob-:O said:

HylianSwordsman said:

But this isn't simply a new format I'm suggesting. It's a referendum that clarifies the opinion of the first referendum. What is actually meant by "Leave" and "Remain"? Different people may have had different ideas on it when voting, and it would be dishonest to suggest that their will is being enacted if a better referendum could more clearly demonstrate their will to be contrary to what seemed to be indicated by the first result. Again, the second result could still be for a Brexit, but the mandate would be clarified to justify the precise Brexit desired, with the people fully informed of the precise Brexits that are possible.

If a second referendum is intended to be a clarification of the first vote then it does not justify the inclusion of a remain option. "Remain" by all accounts was a very well understood option given the question at hand which was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" ...

This means that EU membership is not in the deck of cards so while it might be alright to include a customs union, freedom of movement or some other combinations thereof but EU membership itself must be ruled out in it's entirety to preserve the spirit of Brexit ... 

HylianSwordsman said: 

Again, I don't feel a second referendum would be a refutation of the first, done the way I proposed, so it wouldn't be "not accepting the results" but rather more like clarifying the will of the people more precisely, as I explained above. I think I understand what you mean about opposition, but I think you may misunderstand me. Do you think I'm suggesting that actual representation, as in the actual makeup of parliament/congress/other legislative body, should be driven by the broadest possible consensus? Because that's not what I meant when I spoke of consensus. I meant consensus for the purposes of mandates for policy preferences of the people, and the policy preferences of their legislative bodies. The makeup of the legislative bodies should be designed to be inclined to include more viewpoints, not less. Our system in the US is horrible for that. But policy preferences of the people should be as accurate as possible to what the people as a whole want, pleasing as many people as possible. Sometimes there are more than two possibilities, and certain options may leave more people happy than others, such that a broader consensus and thus a stronger democratic mandate may be achieved by allowing people to rank their choices like I suggest. It effectively allows everyone to say how everyone would most easily find a compromise, if they had to.

Again no EU membership which is what the original question and vote implicated. If you wanted to 'clarify' the will of the people more precisely then only Leave options are on the table as the first referendum ruled out EU membership entirely. It's either no deal, May's deal or a possible opt in for a Norway+/Canada/Switzerland style of deal but nothing else ...

HylianSwordsman said: 

I suppose I'm just not as impressed as you are with the progress made thus far. I think if a hard Brexit had been the voted upon option to begin with, with the full force of British government putting every resource into negotiating more and better trade deals with whomever possible for the entire duration of time from the referendum until March 29th, 2019, the UK would have made much more progress, and you'd all have a clear picture of what your new trade system would look like long before the deadline when things switched over. This would give time for businesses to make whatever changes would best help them adapt.

Again, the will of the people with the Brexit vote would be clarified with the second referendum, so I don't feel this undermines democratic principles at all, but rather upholds them more faithfully.

The British people had voted no EU membership so that's the end of it, you got it ? People are divided over Brexit but the vote has already been settled previously for it and there's no turning back to the people. What the citizens might not have a consensus on is how they want Brexit handled and the House of Commons also can't come to agreement either on what kind of withdrawal agreement either which comes first for the EU before any trade deals ...

Again, you seem to be missing the concept here. The idea is that some people may feel that if they can't have a hard Brexit with no deal, they'd rather not have a Brexit at all, and had they understood that from the beginning, they may have voted Remain. Similarly, Northern Ireland seems to be of the opinion (if I'm understanding things correctly) that they wanted to leave, but ONLY on the condition that it not be a hard Brexit, so they might want to choose Remain as a second option as well, since if they'd known that May would be this incompetent in securing a deal, they might have never chosen leave. Plenty of people might have a Brexit preference, but just want some sort of Brexit, so long as the end result isn't Remain, people like you. And of course, plenty of people might decide that upon closer inspection, leaving doesn't seem so scary after all, and since a lot of the threats have already been baked into the stock market and companies that are going to flee Britain to stay in the EU have largely already done so, Remainers might have a better idea now what sort of Brexit they want if it comes to that, or might have changed their mind and would pick one of the Brexit options as their first choice. But I suppose your fear of people changing their minds is the main reason you're against this. But that seems silly to me, because if they changed their mind, it's because they got new information that gives them a more informed opinion that led them to change their mind. Why should that not be allowed to be reflected in the referendum? It just seems to me like the result of the second, designed as I explained before, would be the most accurate read of the will of the people of the UK. It allows them not only to express their opinion as fully informed as could honestly be expected, but also to indicate preferred conditions of compromise if they can't have their exact way, and indicate preferred conditions on the way Brexit plays out, if it comes to that. It's to me the most honest way to make sure the final policy most closely reflects what the UK would be most pleased with, which seems to me like the point of a referendum.



HylianSwordsman said:

Again, you seem to be missing the concept here. The idea is that some people may feel that if they can't have a hard Brexit with no deal, they'd rather not have a Brexit at all, and had they understood that from the beginning, they may have voted Remain. Similarly, Northern Ireland seems to be of the opinion (if I'm understanding things correctly) that they wanted to leave, but ONLY on the condition that it not be a hard Brexit, so they might want to choose Remain as a second option as well, since if they'd known that May would be this incompetent in securing a deal, they might have never chosen leave. Plenty of people might have a Brexit preference, but just want some sort of Brexit, so long as the end result isn't Remain, people like you. And of course, plenty of people might decide that upon closer inspection, leaving doesn't seem so scary after all, and since a lot of the threats have already been baked into the stock market and companies that are going to flee Britain to stay in the EU have largely already done so, Remainers might have a better idea now what sort of Brexit they want if it comes to that, or might have changed their mind and would pick one of the Brexit options as their first choice. But I suppose your fear of people changing their minds is the main reason you're against this. But that seems silly to me, because if they changed their mind, it's because they got new information that gives them a more informed opinion that led them to change their mind. Why should that not be allowed to be reflected in the referendum? It just seems to me like the result of the second, designed as I explained before, would be the most accurate read of the will of the people of the UK. It allows them not only to express their opinion as fully informed as could honestly be expected, but also to indicate preferred conditions of compromise if they can't have their exact way, and indicate preferred conditions on the way Brexit plays out, if it comes to that. It's to me the most honest way to make sure the final policy most closely reflects what the UK would be most pleased with, which seems to me like the point of a referendum.

Again, if you respected the principles of democracy then everyone needs to come to terms with the result. You take the institutions that exist in western liberal democracies for granted so you still have yet to understand why a result cannot be overturned by a follow-up election. Make no mistake that I'm not missing any concepts, however it is you that needs to understand why we cannot break precedent so easily and that a different election format is not a justification for doing such ... 

Northern Ireland wanted to remain, they didn't want to leave but if they had to leave they wanted to do so under the condition of having no Irish backstop since the protestant unionists which are still currently in political power wanted to be in a strong relationship with the union of kingdoms (UK), however a proposed customs check by the EU between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK threatens this unity since Northern Ireland would be treated very differently and the protestant unionists don't want that ... (the DUP would rather ditch the single market than have a border with the rest of UK) 

The conservative party is in a coalition with the DUP so it's not that Theresa May is necessarily bad at securing a deal but it's that she can't compromise on the backstop proposal unless she wants to risk losing in a vote of confidence ... 

As far as changing minds are concerned, people do change their minds but the precedent of respecting the democratic result means that an election cannot be overturned with another election and that is final. Just as the 2016 US presidential elections was a close race, Americans must come to terms with Trump and the same should apply to the British with Brexit. If the British people still want to change their minds then do so after the fact that they've already left the EU but don't run down their own precedents or institutions in the process with it ... 



fatslob-:O said:
HylianSwordsman said:

Again, you seem to be missing the concept here. The idea is that some people may feel that if they can't have a hard Brexit with no deal, they'd rather not have a Brexit at all, and had they understood that from the beginning, they may have voted Remain. Similarly, Northern Ireland seems to be of the opinion (if I'm understanding things correctly) that they wanted to leave, but ONLY on the condition that it not be a hard Brexit, so they might want to choose Remain as a second option as well, since if they'd known that May would be this incompetent in securing a deal, they might have never chosen leave. Plenty of people might have a Brexit preference, but just want some sort of Brexit, so long as the end result isn't Remain, people like you. And of course, plenty of people might decide that upon closer inspection, leaving doesn't seem so scary after all, and since a lot of the threats have already been baked into the stock market and companies that are going to flee Britain to stay in the EU have largely already done so, Remainers might have a better idea now what sort of Brexit they want if it comes to that, or might have changed their mind and would pick one of the Brexit options as their first choice. But I suppose your fear of people changing their minds is the main reason you're against this. But that seems silly to me, because if they changed their mind, it's because they got new information that gives them a more informed opinion that led them to change their mind. Why should that not be allowed to be reflected in the referendum? It just seems to me like the result of the second, designed as I explained before, would be the most accurate read of the will of the people of the UK. It allows them not only to express their opinion as fully informed as could honestly be expected, but also to indicate preferred conditions of compromise if they can't have their exact way, and indicate preferred conditions on the way Brexit plays out, if it comes to that. It's to me the most honest way to make sure the final policy most closely reflects what the UK would be most pleased with, which seems to me like the point of a referendum.

Again, if you respected the principles of democracy then everyone needs to come to terms with the result. You take the institutions that exist in western liberal democracies for granted so you still have yet to understand why a result cannot be overturned by a follow-up election. Make no mistake that I'm not missing any concepts, however it is you that needs to understand why we cannot break precedent so easily and that a different election format is not a justification for doing such ... 

Northern Ireland wanted to remain, they didn't want to leave but if they had to leave they wanted to do so under the condition of having no Irish backstop since the protestant unionists which are still currently in political power wanted to be in a strong relationship with the union of kingdoms (UK), however a proposed customs check by the EU between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK threatens this unity since Northern Ireland would be treated very differently and the protestant unionists don't want that ... (the DUP would rather ditch the single market than have a border with the rest of UK) 

The conservative party is in a coalition with the DUP so it's not that Theresa May is necessarily bad at securing a deal but it's that she can't compromise on the backstop proposal unless she wants to risk losing in a vote of confidence ... 

As far as changing minds are concerned, people do change their minds but the precedent of respecting the democratic result means that an election cannot be overturned with another election and that is final. Just as the 2016 US presidential elections was a close race, Americans must come to terms with Trump and the same should apply to the British with Brexit. If the British people still want to change their minds then do so after the fact that they've already left the EU but don't run down their own precedents or institutions in the process with it ... 

Since when is it a principles of democracy that results can't be overturned by a follow-up election? I would even say that it is a principle of democracy that results can be overturned by follow-up elections, it happens all the time, you elect your parliament every four years and new governments overturn decisions made by the previous government (Trump overturned obamacare, Merkle overturned the decision to pull out of nuklear-elekticity when she came to power, etc). Sometimes you even have to vote until you get a good result, If the political parties in Germany fail to form a government after an election the citizens have to vote again, The british parliament is currently in a pretty similar situation, they don't want to stay in the EU, they don't want a no-deal scenario and they don't want May's deal, that's a typical deadlock.

Also what if a majority of the british people don't want the Brexit anymore? How would you justify Brexit then? A second referendum could clarify if the people still want the Brexit and if so what kind of Brexit.



I firmly believe that there will be no brexit the powers that be won't allow it. I predict conditions will be engineered so that the people will ask for a second referendum.

Once this happens there will be an extremely strong push across all media that brexit people are naizis and evil, I wouldn't be surprised that false flag attacks will be planted to turn peoples opinions away from leaving EU



...not much time to post anymore, used to be awesome on here really good fond memories from VGchartz...

PSN: Skeeuk - XBL: SkeeUK - PC: Skeeuk

really miss the VGCHARTZ of 2008 - 2013...

phinch1 said:
Barozi said:

You act like the last referendum was the first for the UK to stay in the EU. You're wrong.
There is NO reason not to make a "second" referendum. Since then millions of young people became eligible to vote and millions of old people have died, which makes their vote worthless. If the result stays the same, so be it. But ignoring those millions of votes is definitely much more undemocratic

Well..... Unfortunately that's how a vote works, the one with the most votes winst he one with the least loses, you could say that about anything though, since the last General election, how many people have died and how many people have become eligible to vote, let's have another election, we have new talent in the England team, let's have a go at the 2018 World Cup again 

You do realise that this is precisely why elections and world cups are held on a periodic basis, right? Otherwise, we would have a single general election and a permanent parliament, and a single world cup and a permanent champion. Right?