By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - Changing lead platforms for the first time since 1998.

Conina on 17 September 2018
Cerebralbore101 said:
Conina said:

Ah, the "game x doesn't count" argument for shifting goalposts... how predictable.

Shopkeeper: I have every fruit known to man! Come buy my wares!

Wiseguy: Lists a ton of fruits that are poisonous to humans. 

Shopkeeper: But why would I sell those? People don't want to eat inedible fruits. This is a market after all. 

Wiseguy: Ah, the "fruit x doesn't count" argument for shifting goalposts... how predictable.

I'm just gonna take a break from this thread for the rest of the day. I'm just arguing with the same three users that I've always disagreed with anyway. 

Phase 2: the straw man argument.



MrWayne on 17 September 2018
Conina said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

Shopkeeper: I have every fruit known to man! Come buy my wares!

Wiseguy: Lists a ton of fruits that are poisonous to humans. 

Shopkeeper: But why would I sell those? People don't want to eat inedible fruits. This is a market after all. 

Wiseguy: Ah, the "fruit x doesn't count" argument for shifting goalposts... how predictable.

I'm just gonna take a break from this thread for the rest of the day. I'm just arguing with the same three users that I've always disagreed with anyway. 

Phase 2: the straw man argument.

Wasn't that his original point?
"Consoles have DRM, but there is still an option for a physical DRM-free version with almost all console games, PC lacks this option for most of its library."

There are obviously a lot of digital only games on consoles, but these games probably do not even make up 20% of all games sold. If you look at it in this way, he's right.

He's also right with the second part, many games have a physical version on console but not for PC and those who have a physical PC version are almost always not DRM free because they are bound to an steam/uplay/bnet account.



DonFerrari on 17 September 2018
LudicrousSpeed said:
Chazore said:

But that's the thing, PC gaming doesn't do gens like a console does, thus the library goes on and on and doesn't really stop, while each console gen shows a library wrapping up when a new console gen hits the block. When you compare a current gen console vs a PC's library that hasn't stopped since the 80's, then of course the PC's library is going to appear the largest.

An X1 player is fine to add their BC games to their roster because they have been made available for playing on that system. I don't really see the need to tie down PC to console's generational rule though as it doesn't make any sense since both platforms are different in how they operate.

What Pem said is true though, physical games are DRM, since you cannot take a PS4 game and load it onto a PC, Switch and X1. The consoles themselves are the DRM, as well as their built in storefronts. You also have games that contain built in stores to buy MT's or content like UPlay does with Uplay points, and you cannot spend those Uplay points anywhere else but on UPlay and Ubisoft owned games. 

Windows itself isn't a form of actual malicious spyware. You have agreements that you can either agree or disagree with when it comes to Windows 10, just like Windows 7 had when it launched all those years ago. You have these same kind of agreements for multiple games and what not, and have done for years. IF data collection is a worrisome thing that everyone should objectively worry about, then look no further with how all the big publishers collect gamer data on what they'#ve played, how long they've played it for and what activities they've taken part in within each game. 

I can do 4k 30fps fine on my build, but I do not see the point in going for 4k when the games that come out do not sport higher resolution textures/shadows, which is why I aim for 2k, which is a sharper res that 1080p, while also allowing myself to choose higher settings and going above 60fps for the games I play. THe previous points mentioned put 1440p 3 to 1 for 4k.

Even then, the current gen systems have had to resort to checkerboard 4k, rather than pulling a fat full native 4k and trying to aim for 60fps, instead they rely on a fake 4k while having to try keeping games at 30fps and turning down settings. I'd rather have the middle ground where I get a halfway good sharper image, while also having good high end settings and maintaining or going above 60fps, rather than going for just one option and doing away with settings/performance. 

The same people telling you old games don’t count on PC would be happily including old Playstation games if PS4 had BC. 

When you build a new gaming PC one of the best parts is firing it up and installing loads of classics on it. Not possible on some consoles, of course they’d disallow it.

Nope, there are PS1 classics, PS2 remakes and PS3 remasters on PS4. I bought and platined some of them on original platform and on PS4, but those are a handfull of games.

PS3 had BC last gen until Sony saw that the extra cost didn't brought extra revenue and cut it out. So that pretty much show that listing BC games to pad list war is laughable. You may love some or even all of the previous gen games, but a very very very small number of people would buy new consoles for the intent of playing old games they already had console to play it on.

I assembled my PC about a month ago, haven't installed a single game on it, and it certainly can handle classic games.

Cerebralbore101 said:
Pemalite said:

No they don't. The PC has a game library that spans decades.
There are more games on Steam alone than there are games on the Playstation 1, 2, 3 and 4... Combined.
You know what? Add the PSP and Vita game libraries as well and I would still confidently say the PC has more games.

"Wii has a games library that spans decades, therefore Wii has a better library than 360 or PS3" - Somebody using the same faulty argument as you ten years ago. 

Fantastic. Good for you. There is none on Playstation or Xbox that interests me even in the slightest, couple on Switch I wouldn't mind playing, but won't lower myself to 720P.

But just because there are certain games that don't interest you, doesn't mean there aren't games or aren't good games that may interest others, we are delving into personal taste territory here which is pretty anecdotal.

Critics and fans alike overwhelmingly disagree with you. I realize this is all subjective, but you are in the extreme minority here. Try expanding your horizons a bit.

Physical is DRM.
You cannot take a game disc from the Playstation 4 and drop it into a PC that is running a similar *Nix derived OS, OpenGL derived API and a Jaguar+GCN hardware.
That is by itself DRM, you are being limited.
Rather... What needs to happen is for Emulation to take place to make such a thing a reality.

The only true DRM-free gaming is GOG.

See my response to Chazore. Not going to bother posting it here again, but I put 5 different sources that disagree with your definition of DRM. 

Your argument not only relies on a false definition of DRM, but it leads to absurdities like this...

"I can't play my cassette tape in a CD player, therefore cassette tapes are DRM!"

My responses in bold. Please stop with the multiple quotes on top of quotes on top of quotes. Just quote me once, and then respond to it all.  It makes it very difficult to even respond to you. 

You can't read a book in Japanese only knowing english, DRM.

10 people can't read the same book at the same time, DRM.

Conina said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

Yeah, that's blatantly false. You might as well try to say that the world is flat. Have you not walked into a store in the last thirty years?

Firmware updates for consoles only happen once in a blue moon. Meanwhile windows can't help but nag me at least twice everytime I get on my computer. 

More than half of the released PS4 games in 2017 + 2018 didn't have a retail release. Are you denying that?

https://www.reddit.com/r/PS4/wiki/games

Over 1400 games were released on Switch so far: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nintendo_Switch_games

Only ~250 of them did have a retail release: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FNyvbbU64Pb9lheg28gC_5fMalIYJ0aD763T7M1QqF0/edit#gid=0

Are you denying that either?

And how often does a blue moon happen?

GPU driver updates on PCs aren't that more frequent... and they are optional and not mandatory to keep online functions alive.

Most other driver updates happen in the background.

That is less than once a month, I can certainly keep up with this much easier than my windows that decides to do auto update and restart even when that option haven't been accepted. Anyway PS4 update is very fast, but certainly I wouldn't have any problem keeping up the original one or even making it even bare.

Guess how many of digital only games I buy? I can with reasonable confidence say that more than 90% of my playing time is done on AA or AAA retail game, and even if I'm missing some great A or Indie games digital only I wouldn't even have the free time to play them.

MrWayne said:
DonFerrari said:

Sorry man, but most people don't buy 5 year+ old games constantly and play them. We have seem much on how much gamers cared when PS3 lost B/C, when PS4 came without B/C and when X1 got B/C. So you can do all the list war you want using 80's games, that will still be irrelevant for most people.

I think he still has a point in regards to PC-gaming. Just look at the top 10 most played PC-games, quite a few of them are older than 5 years.
World of Warcraft(2004)
League of Legends(2009)
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive(2012)
Dota 2(2013)(playable since 2011)
PC-gamer have different consumer behavior than console gamer.

And you can still play your games on the original console, I keep my consoles since NES gen, but rarely I play them. They are certainly classics and good to play from time to time, but on the broader view they are neglible on making listing war.

PC gaming is the most curious thing ever, I know to many people that put more than 1k USD in a rig to play DoTA. For me that is asinine use of money but they want some over 200fps even if the graphics will keep being terrible.

MrWayne said:
Cerebralbore101 said:

His definition of DRM is a little bit strange but his "Physical is DRM" line is kinda true.
DRM free games on PC don't require a CD/DVD to play them after the installation. Console games aren't DRM free in that sense.

Nope it isn't kinda true. Digital Rights Management of the physical media is the part that can prevent you from pirating it, not the part that prevent you from using on a different console. Unless you want to call DRM the fact a cobol program can't run in access as is or that someone that reads english only can't read a document in swedish.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

MrWayne on 17 September 2018

DonFerrari said:


MrWayne said:

I think he still has a point in regards to PC-gaming. Just look at the top 10 most played PC-games, quite a few of them are older than 5 years.
World of Warcraft(2004)
League of Legends(2009)
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive(2012)
Dota 2(2013)(playable since 2011)
PC-gamer have different consumer behavior than console gamer.

And you can still play your games on the original console, I keep my consoles since NES gen, but rarely I play them. They are certainly classics and good to play from time to time, but on the broader view they are neglible on making listing war.

PC gaming is the most curious thing ever, I know to many people that put more than 1k USD in a rig to play DoTA. For me that is asinine use of money but they want some over 200fps even if the graphics will keep being terrible.

But that's my point, those PC-games aren't negligible, they are as important for PC-gaming as new releases like GoW, Spider Man or RDR2 are for Playstation.

DonFerrari said:

MrWayne said:

His definition of DRM is a little bit strange but his "Physical is DRM" line is kinda true.
DRM free games on PC don't require a CD/DVD to play them after the installation. Console games aren't DRM free in that sense.

Nope it isn't kinda true. Digital Rights Management of the physical media is the part that can prevent you from pirating it, not the part that prevent you from using on a different console. Unless you want to call DRM the fact a cobol program can't run in access as is or that someone that reads english only can't read a document in swedish.

You have to look at it from the PC gamers perspective.
If a game needs the DVD in the drive to run, it prevents you from running the game on 10 pc's at the same time. that's clearly DRM because it means you and your friends have to buy more then more copy of the game..

This was obviously never a thing in the console space because games were not installed on consoles.

Last edited by MrWayne - on 17 September 2018

Pemalite on 17 September 2018
DonFerrari said:

Well I find a very odd reasoning since you certainly could have your PC as a central "server" to play in the 3 areas, but sure each one have their own needs. But if you don't like any exclusives then that is your option =]

I used to have my home setup in such a way.
But as life got more demanding, the less time I had to maintain it, so I reached a point in my life where I needed to dumb things down.

Cerebralbore101 said:

Pem and I have had that argument before. He wants to count every single PC game made since 1980, and then try to stack it up against a single console generation's library.

I can compare every Playstation console, be it fixed or handheld to the PC's game library and the PC will still have more games.

Cerebralbore101 said:

That's like an XB1 fanboy trying to argue that since XB1 is backwards compatible you have to count every XBO, 360, and XB1 game that isn't playable on PS4, when comparing libraries of the XB1 and PS4.

Every PC game is playable on the PC.

Cerebralbore101 said:

Consoles have DRM, but there is still an option to have a physical DRM free version with almost all console games.

The Physical version is not DRM free.

Cerebralbore101 said:

Yeah I can see 1440p from a 1K build. But 4k? Not happening.

Older games should do 4k just fine.
The great thing about PC though is that when you buy/upgrade your PC... You can run all your older games at higher resolutions and settings.

thismeintiel said:
You obviously have no idea what DRM means if you think physical is DRM. If I can take my disc over to a friend's house and just stick it in his PS1/2/3/4 and it plays, there is no DRM. Using that same argument, GOG is DRM because they don't make the games runnable on the home consoles. It's just a silly argument. They are both bound by the HW/OS they were developed for, not by a code restricting your use of the game.

I can stick my Steam games on an external HDD, plug it into a friends PC and start playing, no different from your physical games.

And the reason why GOG games isn't DRM... Isn't because it won't run on a Playstation console... It's because Sony wouldn't allow it to run, that's the ultimate difference here.
The console itself is also DRM.

thismeintiel said:
And I was one who was pretty damn sure they weren't going with Zen. Of course, we actually have more clues about what Sony is doing, not just that AMD was pushing Ryzen and the X at the same booth. One of Sony's programmers was working to improve Zen compatibility with PS's development environment. I doubt that was for shits and giggles. And we have heard rumors from within AMD about them focusing on Navi for Sony causing tensions with some that worked on Vega. That last could turn out wrong, but I don't think it will.

Grain of salt is needed for the absolute lot of it.

LudicrousSpeed said:

The same people telling you old games don’t count on PC would be happily including old Playstation games if PS4 had BC. 

Except there are more games on PC than there are on the PS1, PS2, PS3, PS4, PSP, Vita... Combined. So... It wouldn't make a difference.

Cerebralbore101 said:

I don't care about your graphics preferences. So long as you understand that a $1000 PC will not run current gen games at 4K. Whatever you are playing at 4K, must be something that isn't graphically intensive at all, if your 1K rig can do it. 

A $1000 rig would be a good 1440P candidate... And run games with higher visual settings than the Xbox One X.

Cerebralbore101 said:

Wii has a games library that spans decades, therefore Wii has a better library than 360 or PS3" - Somebody using the same faulty argument as you ten years ago.

The Wii can't play all those Nintendo console released games over that entire time period.

Cerebralbore101 said:

Critics and fans alike overwhelmingly disagree with you. I realize this is all subjective, but you are in the extreme minority here. Try expanding your horizons a bit.

Your argument is ultimately irrelevant as I already stated that my tastes will differ from others.

Cerebralbore101 said:

"I can't play my cassette tape in a CD player, therefore cassette tapes are DRM!"

That is a fundamental change in technology. It's a silly comparison.
The Playstation 4 is using x86, Graphics Core Next, *Nix derived OS, OpenGL and so on. - If it wasn't for DRM, it would be perfectly playable on a PC of similar build, natively.

MrWayne said:

You have to look at it from the PC gamers perspective.
If a game needs the DVD in the drive to run, it prevents you from running the game on 10 pc's at the same time. that's clearly DRM because it means you and your friends have to buy more then more copy of the game..

This was obviously never a thing in the console space because games were not installed on consoles.

Most Physical PC games tend to have a CD Key, which you then activate on Steam/Origin/uPlay/Battle.net and can download the game rather than use the optical disk if you lack a disk drive.
You can also "share" your game library on PC as well.

But the PC most certainly has DRM, it just has DRM-free options... Consoles are very much "get what you see".



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

MrWayne on 17 September 2018
Pemalite said:
MrWayne said:

You have to look at it from the PC gamers perspective.
If a game needs the DVD in the drive to run, it prevents you from running the game on 10 pc's at the same time. that's clearly DRM because it means you and your friends have to buy more then more copy of the game..

This was obviously never a thing in the console space because games were not installed on consoles.

Most Physical PC games tend to have a CD Key, which you then activate on Steam/Origin/uPlay/Battle.net and can download the game rather than use the optical disk if you lack a disk drive.
You can also "share" your game library on PC as well.

But the PC most certainly has DRM, it just has DRM-free options... Consoles are very much "get what you see".

I was talking about the times before Steam. If you wanted to play AoE2 on a LAN party you only needed one copy.
Something like that isn't possible with the share function on steam, it's limited to one player at once.

Also you have to admit that the DRM on physical console games isn't as bad as on steam games. the DRM doesn't make it a pain in the ass to resell your games.



d21lewis on 17 September 2018

I started playing Conker and RE4 on my Xbox One while I waited for Spiderman and Tomb Raider. I was too slow and when the latter two games released (which I'd pre-ordered), I was too engrossed in the former two. It wasn't until I finished the campaigns that I could focus on the two new releases. Even now, I'm excited about jumping into Resident Evil 5. RE4 and 5 are rereleases on current gen hardware but they're still older games. I spend a lot of time playing games from years ago.



flashfire926 on 17 September 2018
DonFerrari said:

PS3 had BC last gen until Sony saw that the extra cost didn't brought extra revenue and cut it out. So that pretty much show that listing BC games to pad list war is laughable. You may love some or even all of the previous gen games, but a very very very small number of people would buy new consoles for the intent of playing old games they already had console to play it on.


 

Not to take any sides, but the PS3 never really fully got rid of back compat. Every PS3 (even the slims) can play all PS1 disks.  And to make up for PS2 BC removed they released several game collections like ratchet and god of war.

Even during late last gen Playstation/Sony still valued their old games greatly.



Bet with Intrinsic:

The Switch will outsell 3DS (based on VGchartz numbers), according to me, while Intrinsic thinks the opposite will hold true. One month avatar control for the loser's avatar.

thismeintiel on 17 September 2018
Pemalite said:
thismeintiel said:
You obviously have no idea what DRM means if you think physical is DRM. If I can take my disc over to a friend's house and just stick it in his PS1/2/3/4 and it plays, there is no DRM. Using that same argument, GOG is DRM because they don't make the games runnable on the home consoles. It's just a silly argument. They are both bound by the HW/OS they were developed for, not by a code restricting your use of the game.

I can stick my Steam games on an external HDD, plug it into a friends PC and start playing, no different from your physical games.

And the reason why GOG games isn't DRM... Isn't because it won't run on a Playstation console... It's because Sony wouldn't allow it to run, that's the ultimate difference here.
The console itself is also DRM.

LOL, oh boy.  It has nothing to do with what Sony will let them do or not do, it's because it was made for Windows/PC.  It would require porting.  Or for Sony to create, or allow other devs to create, a DOS/Windows emulator for the PS4.  Which I'm sure MS would have something to say about that.  Again, DRM by your poor definition of it.  Really the same goes for modern PCs.  It's not like you can just buy those old discs off Ebay, stick them in any PC, and they run.  Nope, you have to run them with a DOS emulator, which is why those games you buy from GOG/Steam even work.  Just admit it, you used a ridiculous definition of DRM just to push the whole "PC master race."

thismeintiel said:
And I was one who was pretty damn sure they weren't going with Zen. Of course, we actually have more clues about what Sony is doing, not just that AMD was pushing Ryzen and the X at the same booth. One of Sony's programmers was working to improve Zen compatibility with PS's development environment. I doubt that was for shits and giggles. And we have heard rumors from within AMD about them focusing on Navi for Sony causing tensions with some that worked on Vega. That last could turn out wrong, but I don't think it will.

Grain of salt is needed for the absolute lot of it.

Mhmm, sure...


 

SammyGiireal on 18 September 2018
KBG29 said:

PlayStation has finally drove me away. 

For the last 1 1/2 they have completely abandoned PS4. They have stopped supporting any of their services (outside of PlayStation Vue), PSN is down more and more every month, and the OS is getting worse and worse. What the hell are we paying for with PS+?

Microsoft on the other hand has completely revamped the XBO this year. The OS has made massive strides, and is now well ahead of the PS4 OS. They upgraded Edge on XBO, and it now functions almost 1 to 1 with PC (just needs Mouse Support). With that upgrade they brought the ability to download Files, Photos, Music, Videos, Zips, Rars, etc., and they are all accessable right on XBO via the File Explorer and through multiple apps on the Xbox Store.

Their Video store offers 4K HDR content, and just joined Video Anywhere. They are offering Cross Play, which I could care less about, but at least they are not hunkering down in their cave. XBO is gainging more productivity and quality of life apps and features every week. 

Then we have B/C, Xbox Play Anywhere, and Game Pass. Game Pass, for $10 a month gives access to all 1st party games with new releases available on day one. It is absolutely ridiculous value. 

PlayStation has been my main Computing and Entertainment device since 1998. I have bought played, watched, learned, ran business, and more through PlayStation. I have always bought all of my media, and 3rd party games through Sony, even when things were rough, because Sony always delivered new features, innovation, and continual improvement of the products I purchased. That has changed in the last few years. My Bravia's have incradible Picture Quality, but the OS is the worst I have ever used. PS Vita was dropped, and Xperia's are absolute garbage. Now PlayStation and PlayStation Services are going to trash.

For the first time in 20 years, I am changing my main platform. Microsoft has won me over after 17 years of hard work. They have become open, started listening to consumers, and partners. They are building a Platform, that can continually grow, and reach across the entire spectrum of electronics. They have a vision, and they have been open to the public with where they want to go. This is the company that I want to support. So starting this month my $450 a month entertainment budget is moving to Microsoft.

Perhapps Sony can win me back with PS5, but I am not betting on it. I have watched them piss away potential for to long. At this point I am see them closing themselves off, and killing PlayStation, just like they have every other successful product they have ever made. They will refuse to expand PlayStation's  feature set to offer standard functionallity in todays devices, and people will slowly but surely abandon ship.

Yes, the AAA single player games are great, but the rest is terrible. It will catch up to them

Good luck finding must have exclusives. Then again if you missed Halo 1-Reach, those are classics and  so is the original Gears of War Trilogy. Forza is top notch if you are into racing. But both Halo and Gears have lost their luster since their OG devs left. Sony is king this gen and judging by the PS5 hype Microsoft has a big hole to dig themselves out off.