By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Donald Trump: How Do You Feel about Him Now? (Poll)

 

Last November,

I supported him and I still do - Americas 91 15.77%
 
I supported him and I now don't - Americas 16 2.77%
 
I supported him and I still do - Europe 37 6.41%
 
I supported him and I now don't - Europe 7 1.21%
 
I supported him and I still do - Asia 6 1.04%
 
I supported him and I now don't - Asia 1 0.17%
 
I supported him and I still do - RoW 15 2.60%
 
I supported him and I now don't - RoW 2 0.35%
 
I didn't support him and still don't. 373 64.64%
 
I didn't support him and now do. 29 5.03%
 
Total:577

I'm absolutely shocked at how bad some of the logic being spewed in this thread can be.

One side - "I am giving logical, rational arguments backed by science, here are my sources, here's an explanation of the psychology that leads to this, and here's my take on the matter."

Other side - "you can't trust those sources! You're lying! You're biased! Of course that's what the [redacted] media want you to think!"

I just...this is really dumb, guys. I see some people here using real intelligence, logic, reason, and rationale speaking for them while the other half are aggressively denying it, pushing just all the logical fallacies in lieu of actual facts and statistics, then appealing to emotions and tribalistic garbage to play the victim despite being the ones oppressing others by taking away their rights.

The hypocrisy, it burns! And yes, you all know what side is completely devoid of reason.



SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

I don't remember saying anything about Mexico paying for the wall through trade.

Then, how, precisely, do you expect Mexico to pay for the wall?

The less drugs that enter America, the less money they need to spend on crime, health, etc, and the less money that enters Mexico. Less Mexican's being able to constantly cross the border, working in America without paying taxes, and bringing it back to Mexico, that also means more jobs for American's who can be taxed, leading to less poverty, less spending on crime, heath, etc. Many less people getting over the wall means less border spending, crime, etc, plus a bunch of people stuck in Mexico and how many are really going to go back to where they came from, causing many problems which will surely mean money spent that wouldn't be otherwise for Mexico. That's just a small portion of all the many ways Mexico would pay for it. I don't know why you seem to want direct examples as I clearly stated earlier that it would be indirect. 



Alara317 said:
I'm absolutely shocked at how bad some of the logic being spewed in this thread can be.

One side - "I am giving logical, rational arguments backed by science, here are my sources, here's an explanation of the psychology that leads to this, and here's my take on the matter."

Other side - "you can't trust those sources! You're lying! You're biased! Of course that's what the [redacted] media want you to think!"

I just...this is really dumb, guys. I see some people here using real intelligence, logic, reason, and rationale speaking for them while the other half are aggressively denying it, pushing just all the logical fallacies in lieu of actual facts and statistics, then appealing to emotions and tribalistic garbage to play the victim despite being the ones oppressing others by taking away their rights.

The hypocrisy, it burns! And yes, you all know what side is completely devoid of reason.

Do you attach one political side to each side you mention or do you mean it both ways?



Immersiveunreality said:
Alara317 said:
I'm absolutely shocked at how bad some of the logic being spewed in this thread can be.

One side - "I am giving logical, rational arguments backed by science, here are my sources, here's an explanation of the psychology that leads to this, and here's my take on the matter."

Other side - "you can't trust those sources! You're lying! You're biased! Of course that's what the [redacted] media want you to think!"

I just...this is really dumb, guys. I see some people here using real intelligence, logic, reason, and rationale speaking for them while the other half are aggressively denying it, pushing just all the logical fallacies in lieu of actual facts and statistics, then appealing to emotions and tribalistic garbage to play the victim despite being the ones oppressing others by taking away their rights.

The hypocrisy, it burns! And yes, you all know what side is completely devoid of reason.

Do you attach one political side to each side you mention or do you mean it both ways?

Oh, I totally see things one way. It does NOT work the same both ways. If it did, I wouldn't be shocked but just disappointed. One side clearly makes more sense, one side clearly has logic, compassion, and reason on their side, and the other really does act like a hate group or a group so stuck in the past that the idea of change (even if for the better) is a scary prospect. So yes, I admit my bias but even from the perspective of an unbiased third party the lean is so very obvious. 



Alara317 said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Do you attach one political side to each side you mention or do you mean it both ways?

Oh, I totally see things one way. It does NOT work the same both ways. If it did, I wouldn't be shocked but just disappointed. One side clearly makes more sense, one side clearly has logic, compassion, and reason on their side, and the other really does act like a hate group or a group so stuck in the past that the idea of change (even if for the better) is a scary prospect. So yes, I admit my bias but even from the perspective of an unbiased third party the lean is so very obvious. 

So when the plenty of liberal sided commenters in this thread are being critical of believing certain media you accuse them of what,being part of the hate group,ignorant,pretending to be liberal,in denial?

I think you see things a bit darker than what they in reality are.



SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

The less drugs that enter America, the less money they need to spend on crime, health, etc, and the less money that enters Mexico. Less Mexican's being able to constantly cross the border, working in America without paying taxes, and bringing it back to Mexico, that also means more jobs for American's who can be taxed, leading to less poverty, less spending on crime, heath, etc. Many less people getting over the wall means less border spending, crime, etc, plus a bunch of people stuck in Mexico and how many are really going to go back to where they came from, causing many problems which will surely mean money spent that wouldn't be otherwise for Mexico. That's just a small portion of all the many ways Mexico would pay for it. I don't know why you seem to want direct examples as I clearly stated earlier that it would be indirect. 

Oh, so you're whole "pay for the wall" idea is predicated on the wall doing things that the wall won't do. 

I mean do you want a list of all the experts explaining why what you say won't happen too?

Actually, let's go back a bit.  You are in Canada (according to your profile page) so I'm curious where you get your news from?  Canadian sources?  US cable news?  BBC?  Fox?  Some mixture thereof?  I'm only asking because many of your ideas are in alignment with certain news organizations that have long since been debunked by the experts on the subject at hand.  And if your news sources are limited to those aligned with your ideas, then you would not yet have been exposed to the actual data, facts, figures and expertise that has proven those views to be...outdated.

For example, 90-95% of the illegal drug trade comes across the border at points of entry....not in the middle of the desert.  And the 5-10% that does come across in the middle of the desert would easily be diverted to the points of entry or they will use alternative means (short boat trips around the border, drones or tunnels).

Illegal immigration?  Down at levels not seen since the 70's.

If you really wanted to crack down in illegal immigration, look to overstayed Visas from Asia.  They now make up a greater percentage of illegal immigrants than Mexicans do.

And where do you get this notion that Mexicans are crossing the border every day, working in the US, not paying taxes and bring the money back into Mexico?
1. It can't be very many unless it's near a point of entry which requires a work Visa.
2. Any paid employee in the US must pay taxes.  Both directly and through their employer.  Unless their employer is breaking the law but I don't see you bugging about that.
3. Mexico passed laws in 2010 making it very hard to use US Dollars in Mexico.  Limitations on exchanges per person, per day and per month, documentation of acquisition required, many places no longer take US Dollars at all or limit the transactions to less than $100.

Then why do American's build walls within their own country if walls won't do what a wall is supposed to do? We only get a single Canadian news channel and they don't talk all that much about American politics, but when they do, they just repeat whatever has been said by the lefty American MSM, like CNN. I know because when I see American political news I check various sources on both sides of the net, plus what's being said on both sides on YouTube where they go more in depth, and make up my mind, based on what makes the most sense. There are plenty of times both sides give the facts on a topic, and yet somehow the facts are rarely the same even if their talking are about the same thing. I'm not sure how that's possible if they are in fact, fact's.

Experts? I used to work for a specialized company, and we were well known as experts, and after working with some of the competition as well, I can assure you, while we were some of the best at what we did, at best, the oldest vet of the company was worthy of that title themselves, but nobody else I had ever worked with came close. As a sizable group working on a site, we could be considered experts with all of our knowledge and abilities pooled together as one, but not individually. We also weren't always right and didn't always make the best decisions either. We at times made decisions that benefited the company as well instead of doing what was best for the customer. Expert does not mean perfection. The word expert has lost it's true meaning, because most who hold it are anything but, yet claim to be and are followed blindly. When I hear the word expert today, all I hear is a marketing PR buzzword. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/05/us/border-crossing-increase.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FIllegal%20Immigration

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/05/us/crossing-the-border-statistics.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FIllegal%20Immigration



Bofferbrauer2 said:
jason1637 said:

1. Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be a career. If someone is working a minimum wage job then they did something wrong. Also if we get rid of welfare and social security then corporate taxes can be decreased which will let business to be able to pay their workers more.

2. A higher minimum wage does not mean much because the markets would end up adjusting. Even though Australia has a higher minimum wage their poverty rate is at 13.2% while it's 12.3% here in the US.

It's illegal to steal money so there are ways to handle that. 

b. Investments don't always work out in the end but it's still an option and if you invest wisely the returns can be really good.

c. If someone becomes unemployed then they should look for another job. 

3. Well depressions don't happen all the time and eventually go away with time. Yeah it will hurt people financially but that's just how it is. 

4. If you have a medical condition you should take your meds lol. There is a difference between taking medication and getting addicted.

5. If you invest in communities the standad of living will increase which will allow people to get better jobs so a mother can afford food and an old women can buy insulin.

6. The people that actually need help can get help through the government investing in lower income communities and through charities. They don't need a government handout.

1. Problem is that millions of jobs only pay minimum wage. Botht hose people and the economy as a whole depend very much on those.

Corporate taxes got decreased very very much over the last decades. Trump just slashed it from 35% to 21%, so in effect almost halved the corporate tax. But by your theory the wages would have been increased in a similar motion. Where are those wage increases, I ask you? Answer: nonexistent, as they are not obliged in any way to pay them more. The brunt of this tax cut goes into executives and shareholder pockets, the rest into investments, buybacks and liquidity reserves. Normal employees get zip out of those tax cuts.

2. a. You have to consider that those poverty lines are arbitrarily set by the state. But extreme poverty is real in the US much more than any other developed country. The reason is the welfare state, or lack thereof in the US. While the rest of the world provides some bottom line which allows people to live, what they get in the US had been described as "too much to die, not enough to live". Just check how low the US bottoms out on this chart:

This is the result of the inadequate US social security and welfare state. And yet republicans want to further cut that down.

b. Investments don't always work out. Yeah, but that's not the problem. The problem is that you need to have some expendable income to be able invest something in the first place.

c. Believe me, they do. But finding a job is not always as easy as you seem to think, especially not if your skillset is too limited or outdated.

3. It took 6 years to get unemployment in the US back to pre-recession levels of 2006. If you're unlucky that means over 5 years of unemployment for you. Of course the recession will go away after a while, but it's effects linger around for much longer than you think.

4. What if you can't afford those medicines? That's what universal healthcare is supposed for, after all. But not in the US, apparently.

About the addiction, you know how the opiate crisis started? With prescription drugs containing opiates as extra strong painkillers. They were supposed to give out the opiates very slowly and not make anyone addicted to them. But those who couldn't swallow the pills crushed them, and only then it got found out that when crushed, the retardent wouldn't work (and wasn't strong enough anyway, so anybody with very strong pains was at risk of getting highly dependent on those medicines). Oh, and both the right for painkillers and the allowance for opiates in painkillers stem from unipartisan republican legislation under Bush junior.

5. Only if their wages raise with it. Otherwise only the price of living will go up for them.

6. Not enough to live from. Also, charity only helps against the symptoms, but not the underlying causes of social injustice, which welfare tackles. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/charity/against_1.shtml

This is also why international aid nowadays doesn't just send money into poverty-strick regions, but instead tackle on their own infrastructure to give a groundwork for further development, and bring food for the hungry in a starvation to ensure it's not getting squandered onto other tasks or pocketed by the local governments.

You also don't seem to understand that it's not just a handout. You could make it like in Luxembourg, where you get unemployment aid, but you have to register at the unemployment office, go there every time they call you and go to every job offer they send you (unless on sickness leave, but then you need to send them the doctor's notice), lest you get either reduced aid or no aid at all for a couple months if you're a repeating offender. This is to make sure you're serious about looking for work and not sitting around, waiting for charity donations to trickle in.

1. Minimum wage jobs are not mean't ot sustain people for long periods of time. They are not supposed to be careers.

Wages have began to increase though, not as much as the corporate tax cuts but thats becuase some of the tax money will go to other avenues of the company. But the wages did increase which is still good.

2. a- Poverty is still a good indication of of how someone stands in society compared to others around and based on where they live. Also that chart you posted is showing US statistics from 2010 when we were still trying to get out of a recession. It does not really paint a clear picture of the situation now.

b- If you invest even a small amount of your paycheck it can still help you in the long run regardless.

c- This is why if we invest in communities we can help teach people useful skill and push them in a way that they can pursue a higher education.

3. Im pretty sure it's unlikely that a decent amount of people were unemployed for five straight years during the recession. President Obama was doing a good job at creating new jobs during the recession.

4. Universal healthcare needs to happen. I'm not disagreeing with that.

5. People getting prescription to strong painkillers is the pharmaceutical industries fault. But if you find out that these drugs are bad for you and don't cut down then you're at fault for harming yourself when you know it isnt good for you.

6. Im not suggesting people should depend on charities. All im saying is that if we get rid of the welfare state and replace it with programs that push people to a better path and charities can also help these people then I think it would be better for the poor and middle class. This would also help reduce wealth inequality.

Everything I have said in this post I have already addressed so i'm just repeating myself now. But I understand what you guys are trying to say. There are a lot of wealth inequality so people may not be able to save up for retirement and when people are unemployed or working minimum wage it should be the government's job to provide them financial aid. I do agree with you two that the government should help the people but I think we are disagreeing on how they should help the people. In my opinion the way welfare is does not really push people to change their situation. Welfare is like a bandage to stop the bleeding. If we were able to get rid of most welfare programs and social security then we cut income taxes which will help the middle class and some of the poor. We can also eliminate sales tax which would help a lot of poor people but sales tax is handled by the states so that would be tricky. Anyways if we do this then the government can invest in poor communities by starting programs that allows people to have acess to free pre-k, free rehabilitation, job training and job opportunities, and programs that help people pursue a higher education. These types of prgrams are not just throwing free stuff to those in need but are giving them opportunities that they can take advantage of that would help them and their family more in the long run. If you can keep someone off the streets and in a learning enviroment they will be liekly to pursue higher education and get a good job and come back to help their community. A lot of rappers I listen to do this and it's pretty cool.



the-pi-guy said:
EricHiggin said:

The less drugs that enter America, the less money they need to spend on crime, health, etc, and the less money that enters Mexico. Less Mexican's being able to constantly cross the border, working in America without paying taxes, and bringing it back to Mexico, that also means more jobs for American's who can be taxed, leading to less poverty, less spending on crime, heath, etc. Many less people getting over the wall means less border spending, crime, etc, plus a bunch of people stuck in Mexico and how many are really going to go back to where they came from, causing many problems which will surely mean money spent that wouldn't be otherwise for Mexico. That's just a small portion of all the many ways Mexico would pay for it. I don't know why you seem to want direct examples as I clearly stated earlier that it would be indirect. 

There's a lot that's wrong here:

A large percentage of drugs come to the country through legal entrances.  Even if they weren't, you'd start to find that drug dealers would go to different lengths to make it happen.  Building a wall isn't what is going to stop drug trafficking.  At most, all it would do is change how drug trafficking is done.  And it won't even do that, because again,
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/border-issues/2019/01/08/most-hard-drugs-get-smuggled-into-u-s-through-ports-entry/2517586002/

Americans aren't interested in farm work.  It's a nice idea that Americans would start picking up these jobs, but it's not what happens.  Despite the fact that there are currently not enough workers, native born American workers aren't picking up these jobs.  

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/farmers-suffer-from-a-shortage-of-workers-but-native-born-americans-dont-want-the-jobs/
https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/

On the note that border spending will go down.  That's another thing that just won't happen.  It costs a lot of money to build and maintain a wall.  You might think that you could use less people, but you really can't.  If you want the border wall to work any better than our current border works, then you need to throw a ton of money at it.  You still need a lot people patrolling to make sure they aren't building tunnels, climbing over, finding spots in the wall that aren't well maintained.  

At some point with a wall, you reach diminishing returns. Where it actually costs more money to defend the border than it actually saves.  

EricHiggin said:

Then why do American's build walls within their own country if walls won't do what a wall is supposed to do? 

Firstly a tiny wall around a house doesn't compare to a several thousand mile wall that has to be built through deserts and mountains.

Secondly no one is building a wall around their house because they are worried about the influx of undocumented immigrants. 

The best reason to build a fence around your house is privacy, not security. 

Wrong? So no drugs come across the border? What if those lengths were no longer worth it? What if it was cheaper to just sell them elsewhere? More work to get them in, more cost, less drug use, less money going across the border. Once the border wall is taken care of, and money is being saved, where do you think they will focus on next?

Why work in terrible conditions for min wage when you can pretend to look for a job and collect welfare? You do realize you said working a job that provides the one thing people have to have, no question, that's mass produced, isn't worth it right? American's also don't seem to care about protecting their borders and fellow citizens within them.

Part of the point of a wall is to at least flat line if not decrease spending in that area. Once it's built, if done correctly, other than maintenance here and there and border patrol to verify the wall isn't breached, the wall should save money overall. Why are the Dems saying more needs to be spent on manpower and tech? That's what would need to be done without a proper physical barrier and would get more costly over time.

SpokenTruth said:
EricHiggin said:

Then why do American's build walls within their own country if walls won't do what a wall is supposed to do? We only get a single Canadian news channel and they don't talk all that much about American politics, but when they do, they just repeat whatever has been said by the lefty American MSM, like CNN. I know because when I see American political news I check various sources on both sides of the net, plus what's being said on both sides on YouTube where they go more in depth, and make up my mind, based on what makes the most sense. There are plenty of times both sides give the facts on a topic, and yet somehow the facts are rarely the same even if their talking are about the same thing. I'm not sure how that's possible if they are in fact, fact's.

Experts? I used to work for a specialized company, and we were well known as experts, and after working with some of the competition as well, I can assure you, while we were some of the best at what we did, at best, the oldest vet of the company was worthy of that title themselves, but nobody else I had ever worked with came close. As a sizable group working on a site, we could be considered experts with all of our knowledge and abilities pooled together as one, but not individually. We also weren't always right and didn't always make the best decisions either. We at times made decisions that benefited the company as well instead of doing what was best for the customer. Expert does not mean perfection. The word expert has lost it's true meaning, because most who hold it are anything but, yet claim to be and are followed blindly. When I hear the word expert today, all I hear is a marketing PR buzzword. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/05/us/border-crossing-increase.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FIllegal%20Immigration

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/05/us/crossing-the-border-statistics.html?rref=collection%2Ftimestopic%2FIllegal%20Immigration

Do you mean privacy fences?  Or walls around a gate community?  I need to know more about what you mean.

As for your links, those are caravans of refuges who are entering at the points of entry seeking asylum.  Did you read your own articles?

"But a wall would do little to slow migration, most immigration analysts say. While the exact numbers are not known, many of those apprehended along the southern border, including the thousands who present themselves at legal ports of entry, surrender voluntarily to Border Patrol agents and eventually submit legal asylum claims."

Those that are more spread out now and are crossing illegally are doing so because of the frustrations and fear of actually crossing at the legal points of entry (exceptionally long waits and family separation....still thousands of kids separated from their parents and officials have no idea where they moved the kids to).

Any type of barrier.

Exact numbers are not known. Hmmm. Surrendered and eventually asked for asylum. Hmmm. Most analysts say. The experts again? Hmmm. Same type of people who've been telling us the world was doomed because of climate change way back, who weren't wrong, obviously... just made poor calculations due to lack of info, who now again know the world is over in 12 years if we don't do something right now?

So it's America's fault they just won't let everyone walk right into the country uninterrupted? Maybe America needs to borrow more and add more debt just to make it easier for immigrants to enter the country and instantly be completely taken care of? Thousands of kids used as pawns to cross the border?

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 14 March 2019

SpokenTruth said:
jason1637 said:

b- If you invest even a small amount of your paycheck it can still help you in the long run regardless.

I gave you an example earlier.  I'll post it again.

"Say they retire at 75 (several years after retirement age) and yet live to 100. That's 25 years. If they saved $200,000, they'd have just $8,000 per year to live on without considering for inflation and cost of living increases (which have more than doubled in the past 25 years)."

So what does it take to save $200,000?  Save $50 per week for 50 years at 2% interest (final total = $205,925).  But good luck getting that rate.  Current savings account rates are just 0.06% on average....which would give our retiree just $121,816 for the next 25 years.  Less than $5,000 per year to work with.

Save more.



the-pi-guy said:
jason1637 said:

Save more.

You got to be kidding me.  

SpokenTruth's example is $50 a week.  When a huge percentage of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, they can't afford $50 a week.  Let alone more.  

Well it's because of debt. Just try not to go into debt or manage your debt better.