windbane said: Cipherr said: windbane said: HappySqurriel said: ColonelFury said: HappySqurriel said: ColonelFury said: Do you mean the device that sells poorly because it has no developers support, or the device that gets no developer support because it will sell poorly? No. I'm talking about the Playstation 3. Which actually hasn't sold poorly. I wasn't talking about the PS3 ... There has never been an add-on that has sold particularly well for any videogame system; they end up being niche products that are very poorly supported. You can not make a Wiimote add-on for the PS3 and expect it to sell more than a few hundred thousand units worldwide, and with expectations of such a small userbase no developer will support it. yeah, that dual-shock add-on for the PS1 never took off, did it? just like games for the 360 should have the option to install games, the PS3 could have the option to use different control schemes. that's something the Wii should do as well. The dual shock is not an addon. It was a controller replacement so they could cash in on what Nintendo packed into their system. An addon is something that is SPECIFICALLY not packaged with the console. The Dual shock started coming boxed with the PS. And the reason they did that is because, like the guy said, addons never ever do well. In order to sidestep that Sony HAD to pack it in. Had they sold dual shock separately devs would not have supported it as much as they could have because they would have known not everyone playing a PS would have had it. But by packing it in, and thereby completely phasing out the previous controller they made it the standard. The same thing will happen when sony is done adding rumble to the sixaxxis with the help of immersion (or whoever they are). The PS3 will come packed with the NEW sixaxxis, possibly renamed from that point forward. The Eyetoy was succesful. The HD-DVD add-on for 360 is relatively successful. My point remains because it was a comparison to an added control scheme. Sony could easily pack that in. But seeing as how the Playstation Eye will do motion tracking just like the Eyetoy did years ago, and the PS3 already has its sixaxis feedback, I doubt it will be neccessary. Microsoft is the company that needs to copy, but I believe Moore said there will not be motion detection for the 360. Guess we'll see, but there have been decently successful add-ons. Rumble pak, anyone?

Your missing the point. Maybe successful is too broad a word to use. Take a look at the amount of games third parties made for the Eyetoy. Add ons flat out will not be developed for en masse by third parties because of their nature. You just cannot count on consumers having anything outside of whats in the box when they buy the console. Thats why they tend to stay away from it. Sure Eyetoy had a few games and it sold well, but your kind of missing the point. If MS released a 360 wiimote tommorow that wasnt packed in, maybe it would sell, but it wouldnt come anywhere near stealing the Wiis thunder, nor would it be developed for by most 3rd parties.

what happens when the novelty of the wiimote wears off? the same thing that I'd imagine happens when the novelty of HD graphics wears off.... what's that you ask? people keep buying the system and games because the consumer wants good games above all else, regardless of how they look or are played.

Ok I just wanna say this about the new eyetoyHD.

The usefulness on it, is the ability to video chat in game lobbies while waiting for the game to start, among other assorted uses. 

Kwaad said: Ok I just wanna say this about the new eyetoyHD. The usefulness on it, is the ability to video chat in game lobbies while waiting for the game to start, among other assorted uses.

it's bad enough listening to the people in game lobbies, I don't want to have to SEE them too.

video conferencing with friends, however, would be sweet

 

Avinash_Tyagi said: windbane said: LordTheNightKnight said: That may be bad from a hardcore player's view, but from a CASUAL player's view, it means those games weren't as fun without the Wiimote. You just pressed buttons, but didn't feel like you were actually in the game. That's why the Wiimote changes everything.   The Wiimote does not put you in the game, it allows you to mimic real motions. The Eyetoy (released years before the Wii) put you "in" the game. The Eye will do the same exact thing, with voice commands. Hmm...motion sensing and 6-axis...interesting, huh?   For close to a grand, how many will pay that much, not many

 Don't know where you get your economics from, but this kind of response is pretty typical.

Cipherr said: windbane said: Cipherr said: windbane said: HappySqurriel said: ColonelFury said: HappySqurriel said: ColonelFury said: Do you mean the device that sells poorly because it has no developers support, or the device that gets no developer support because it will sell poorly? No. I'm talking about the Playstation 3. Which actually hasn't sold poorly. I wasn't talking about the PS3 ... There has never been an add-on that has sold particularly well for any videogame system; they end up being niche products that are very poorly supported. You can not make a Wiimote add-on for the PS3 and expect it to sell more than a few hundred thousand units worldwide, and with expectations of such a small userbase no developer will support it. yeah, that dual-shock add-on for the PS1 never took off, did it? just like games for the 360 should have the option to install games, the PS3 could have the option to use different control schemes. that's something the Wii should do as well.   The dual shock is not an addon. It was a controller replacement so they could cash in on what Nintendo packed into their system. An addon is something that is SPECIFICALLY not packaged with the console. The Dual shock started coming boxed with the PS. And the reason they did that is because, like the guy said, addons never ever do well. In order to sidestep that Sony HAD to pack it in. Had they sold dual shock separately devs would not have supported it as much as they could have because they would have known not everyone playing a PS would have had it. But by packing it in, and thereby completely phasing out the previous controller they made it the standard. The same thing will happen when sony is done adding rumble to the sixaxxis with the help of immersion (or whoever they are). The PS3 will come packed with the NEW sixaxxis, possibly renamed from that point forward. The Eyetoy was succesful. The HD-DVD add-on for 360 is relatively successful. My point remains because it was a comparison to an added control scheme. Sony could easily pack that in. But seeing as how the Playstation Eye will do motion tracking just like the Eyetoy did years ago, and the PS3 already has its sixaxis feedback, I doubt it will be neccessary. Microsoft is the company that needs to copy, but I believe Moore said there will not be motion detection for the 360. Guess we'll see, but there have been decently successful add-ons. Rumble pak, anyone?   Your missing the point. Maybe successful is too broad a word to use. Take a look at the amount of games third parties made for the Eyetoy. Add ons flat out will not be developed for en masse by third parties because of their nature. You just cannot count on consumers having anything outside of whats in the box when they buy the console. Thats why they tend to stay away from it. Sure Eyetoy had a few games and it sold well, but your kind of missing the point. If MS released a 360 wiimote tommorow that wasnt packed in, maybe it would sell, but it wouldnt come anywhere near stealing the Wiis thunder, nor would it be developed for by most 3rd parties.

Yeah, I know you can't count on everyone having it.  That's why not having a hard drive in every console was Microsoft's biggest mistake thus far.  However, you are ignoring MY point.  Rumble pak and dual shock both succeeded.  I'm not sure what would be considered success but the Eye Toy and HD-DVD were both successful in my eyes.  The 32x and Sega-CD ruined Sega's reputation.

I think the guitars for Guitar Hero are working out quite nicely as well.

Kwaad, I think the Eye will get enough compelling games to make it worthwhile for more than just a webcam.  It has better techs than typical webcams anyway, though.

Anyway, I don't think Sony needs to introduce any new control scheme because a controller with motion sensing is about as good as you can get right now for just one controller.  I still contend that add-ons aren't always doomed to fail and I think there are plenty examples of that as I've said.  I think the Eye in combination with the sixaxis provides the ability to do everything the Wii does and more, because it can actually put you on screen and react to all of your body.

HappySqurriel said: windbane said: The Eyetoy was succesful. The HD-DVD add-on for 360 is relatively successful. My point remains because it was a comparison to an added control scheme. Sony could easily pack that in. But seeing as how the Playstation Eye will do motion tracking just like the Eyetoy did years ago, and the PS3 already has its sixaxis feedback, I doubt it will be neccessary. Microsoft is the company that needs to copy, but I believe Moore said there will not be motion detection for the 360. Guess we'll see, but there have been decently successful add-ons. Rumble pak, anyone? From Wikipedia: These games require the EyeToy to be played. All produced by Sony unless noted. 2003 EyeToy: Play EyeToy: Groove 2004 EyeToy: Antigrav Sega SuperStars (Sega) U Move Super Sports (Konami) EyeToy: Chat - a videophone system for use with the network adaptor EyeToy: Play 2 Disney Move (Ubisoft) Nicktoons Movin' (THQ) 2005 EyeToy: Monkey Mania EyeToy: Kinetic EyeToy: EduKids EyeToy: Play 3 EyeToy: Operation Spy (known as SpyToy in Europe) Clumsy Shumsy (Phoenix Games Ltd. [UK/NL]) 2006 Rhythmic Star (Namco) Eyetoy: Play Sports" Eyetoy: Kinetic Combat" 18 games released in total which require the Eye-toy of which 2/3 are produced by Sony demonstrates my point quite well. Sony put as much support behind the eye-toy as anyone has put into an addon since the Sega-CD/32X but (like all addons) it was doomed to fail. Regardless of whether the add-on has merit or not, the best it can (typically) do is be a niche product primarily being supported by the company that produced it. DDR pads, Kongos, Guitars, Microphones, Cameras, light guns and steering wheels will never be owned by enough of a userbase to make it worth the while of third party developers to support them heavily.

Well I guess we have different definitions of success. I think millions of hardware and software sold at profit is a success. It also paved the way for motion sensing in games, something which Sony apparently gets no credit for these days.

The Eye, if prices correctly, could be even more successful. And I don't want to repeat myself a lot here but the dual shock and rumble pak (and to a lesser extent the hd-dvd add-on) were both "add-ons" to the original console specs and both were successful (to me...apparently you don't think it's possible). I think you're stuck in Sega times...those 2 addons had a completely different impact on the company.

windbane said: @bdbdbd: I read your HD comments and I gotta say you make no sense.  Just do something for me:  change your monitor resolution to 480p... If you didn't, let me tell you what it will look like:  much less will be on the screen and the text will be hugely magnified.  Now, imagine stretching that image across a 50" TV.  Ugly.  Trying to browse like that is painful to me. Having resolutions at least 720p allow much more to be on the screen.  It is a huge disadvantage to not have that ability on the Wii. Here's a nice chart showing you the difference:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/480p Computer games have been raising resolutions for years, so why didn't the Wii?  Â

Which part doesn't make sense? Part where you can get better picture quality (at least in theory) with HDTV? Part where i said that Wii supports resolution that HDTV:s support? Btw. Rumble Paks success was pretty much about it being packed with Lylat Wars. A game which did not require it and was pretty popular. And the Dual Shock was successful, because it was packed with PSX, replacing the old controller. After that, every developer was required to make controls primary to DS. Eye Toy wasn't wery succesful, if looking at developer support. A couple of minigames from Sony. But for an add-on it was successful. If Sony would want to make Eye something comparable to Wii Remote, it should pack it with PS3 and require every developer make good use for it, but control scheme should still be optional for the conventional controller.

Back to the original comment. How many times do we have to discuss the wii = fad thing? http://wii.ign.com/articles/784/784239p1.html

superchunk said: Back to the original comment. How many times do we have to discuss the wii = fad thing? http://wii.ign.com/articles/784/784239p1.html

Don't worry.  Callin the Wii a fad is just a fad.